MURIEL WILKINS: I’m Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast Network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that, hopefully, they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing.
Today’s guest is someone we’ll call Moe to protect his confidentiality. He’s based in the Middle East and manages a client-facing team dispersed across multiple locations. His team has doubled in size in the last few years, and it hasn’t always been easy.
MOE: Before being promoted to director, when I was a project manager, I wasn’t really having direct reports. Maybe this was the main challenge when it came being a director, and something related to the challenge is maybe that when I got promoted, it was during the COVID. The turnover was absolutely high. So, while I was just getting promoted and I’m starting to work how I’m going to manage the team, I was just getting a lot of people who are resigning, and I need to maintain them. So, actually, I lost half of my team in actually a couple of months, and it was a big struggle for me at that time.
MURIEL WILKINS: Moe advanced steadily at his company and has performed well. He made the shift to his current director-level role during a tumultuous time, but he’s also running into other challenges that he didn’t expect.
MOE: Usually, if you are having a diversified team from junior to senior employees, your expectation is always that you need to give a hand for the junior team, and you trust the senior ones that they know the job. They know how to do it. You trust their decisions. But when it came to reality, it’s totally the opposite. I’ve seen a lot of incidents happened. And unfortunately, I’m struggling with managing the senior employees in my team.
MURIEL WILKINS: We started the conversation there by looking deeper at how exactly he was struggling with more senior members of his team versus the more junior members, and how the impact of this dynamic was playing out. Let’s dive in.
MOE: It’s a struggle because I feel it’s unfair for my team, because they know each other, and they know how each project within the company, within our region is moving, and is it healthy or not? So, when they hear about escalations that are happening with senior employees versus what they are doing in their projects, and they are achieving their milestones, you are getting the questions from the juniors, “Why you are not promoting me or giving me? I’m doing better.” People, they start to compare, and it’s affecting, I would say, the team spirit. That’s one of the things.
The other thing, I don’t have a successor. And for me, I feel this is a fail, because if I’m not having a successor, I don’t feel that I did my job or I didn’t deliver the message as expected. I’m trying not to be blaming myself, but I’m keeping myself accountable at the end that, at a certain point, I need to make sure that there is someone to manage the team for certain time, or even to release one or two of the junior project managers to be direct reports to one of these seniors, which is, until now, I’m not able to give this green light.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. What would make you feel like you can give this green light?
MOE: If I got the trust from them, if I felt that they are accountable, if I felt that they are able to manage their projects as expected without… I wouldn’t say advice. It’s not the normal advice, Muriel. We’re talking here sometimes about basics, that it shouldn’t be going this way. It’s mainly about trust.
MURIEL WILKINS: All right. And it sounds like the trust for you would come if you could see that they are performing, delivering their projects as expected.
MOE: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So, I heard you say that your hope would be that these senior-level folks on your team, that they could be accountable to what they need to be doing. So, my question for you is, what role have you been playing in holding them accountable?
MOE: I’m having my one-to-one meeting with all the team. I’m trying to be updated with their project progress. I am asking them about any challenges. I try not to get dragged with the day-to-day interaction, but just as an oversight on the whole project, how is it moving, and any challenges, especially if I know that, for example, they are managing a new country that they are not familiar with the regulations, and they might be looking for some guidance, and I can give such thing.
But again, if they are coming up with a lot of issues without coming with a solution, that’s one of the flags. I would say that they are not being accountable. If they are having issues that wasn’t pre-identified, and it was just flagged when it came with an official escalation, that’s a flag for me that they are not getting accountable. If the rest of the team working with them, they are struggling, and I’m getting some concerns from cross-functional departments about either responsiveness or in the way of communication or the support that they are expecting from a project manager, it’s a flag of accountability.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So, when these things happen, let’s just take, they come up with issues, but no solution, or you’re hearing complaints from cross-functional groups about lack of responsiveness. And I hear you when you say it’s a lack of accountability. What I’m curious about is, what is it that you are doing as their manager when these things happen?
MOE: If I’m going to take an example here for such a situation, so one of them was just coming with big experience. He was a director, actually, but he was looking for a job, and he applied for a project manager. I knew that when I was interviewing him, even I had this discussion that, “Wouldn’t you see that it’s going to be a challenge that you are downgrading to level from what you had previously? You had a lot of direct reports.” And he told me at the end, “I’m looking for the new challenges, and I’m open to take the ladder.”
But what happened when he joined and we started working together, he had a lot of concerns. Maybe it’s the company culture, maybe how we are running the business. It looks different from what he has experienced on different companies, his expectation that we should be challenging each other, that this is something healthy for the work. But we don’t have this kind of interactions. And so, he was always coming with some guidance or recommendations, but at certain point, it became that they are not accepting this kind of recommendations.
And at the beginning, I just thought it’s benign and he will just try to move on, because you need to build relations and rapport with the team that you are working with. But unfortunately, these kind of concerns started to raise from different people, and I had to have this discussion at certain point trying to calm him down and to focus on the work itself rather than focusing on the people and what they are doing. “So, let’s just make the job done, and everyone will be happy.”
But it came with a very defensive discussion, I would say. So, it was a struggle for some time. Even if I’ve seen some improvement in this communication internally, still I’m finding struggles with the communication with the external stakeholders.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, Moe, what do you think you need to do?
MOE: I would go for my way of discussion when it comes to negative feedback. So, frankly speaking, I’m not that confrontational person, but I try to deliver the message, and I did it in a way or another, not sure if I need to try different strategy to get different outcome, which I think it’s a must, because I cannot do the same and expect different outcome.
But with his level of seniority, you will feel that he might be bored a little bit, or is feeling… He lost the passion, and he’s looking for the next step. But again, this is putting me in a challenging part, because I cannot give someone who is not delivering, and he is not getting what is expected from a project, and I’m just rewarding him to give him direct reports, because that’s what he’s looking for. It cannot be this way. I feel that I need to put him this year under “needs development” grade, but I feel it’s going to be a very tough discussion to go through with.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah.
MOE: My big challenge with him when we are having discussion about performance or about issues is the defensive way he’s talking about the accountability that, always, when we’re talking about an issue happened or a gap, that this issue or gap will be just thrown on someone. It’s, “This one, he didn’t review it correctly,” or “This one, didn’t give me the right information.” So, at the end, he’s not going to say, “Okay. I’m accountable for that.” Maybe I didn’t have this experience having direct reports. It’s not that much long time to have a lot of tough discussions.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, let’s take a step back, because I want to kind of make sure that I am reflecting back what I’m hearing. I think on the one hand, you have this, How do I drive accountability with these senior-level folks? Right? And so, what it seems like you’ve tried to do is, when you see something that’s not going right, you provide them with some feedback, albeit it might feel a little difficult to do so. And in one of the examples that you shared, it sounds like, at least with the internal team, there was some difference. There was some change in behavior, but now you’re seeing the behavior pop up again, but somewhere else.
MOE: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: And in those situations, what it means is… I mean, I don’t know. Was your expectation that when you gave him that feedback, that would be it? He would be done? He would make the change, and then it would never happen again?
MOE: It didn’t happen from the first time. It took me one year having these discussions with the different concerns that came from cross-functional department. Maybe it was three, four months ago when we had this discussion, and I started our meeting saying that, “I can see improvement in the way of your communication with the colleagues internally. What do you think about that?” And he told me at that time, “Yeah. I tried to follow the other ways in order to get things easier for us.”
So, I told him at the end, “Let’s take it positively. You try to find other pathways that works at the end,” which it seems right, and he told me, “I agree on that.” So, I tried to deliver, just encourage him that, “You are doing good.” And I felt that it was a good message, that he was able to digest it, and things were moving in a better way. But again, when it came, it was the other way around from the clients, and now they are asking to remove him. So, we are talking here about unpleasant track record, let’s say.
MURIEL WILKINS: Moe is experiencing what a lot of managers, at any level, experience, the need to have some difficult conversations with those he’s managing, and to try to shape behavior towards a path that’s better for the organization overall. The specifics here of why Moe’s employee may or may not be performing is not what’s important, because those specifics, they’ll always change depending on who he’s dealing with. But what we can focus on is whether Moe can use new ways of handling these situations when they arise.
It’s clear that he wants to do a good job here, and is self-reflective in realizing that even at his senior level, he hasn’t had to have many of these difficult feedback conversations in the past. I think it’s important to note that as much as we might want to, it’s not always a given that leaders and managers can help improve someone’s behavior or performance, especially if they’re not coachable.
But what we do have control over is our own behavior and how we approach a situation, both mentally and tactically. Now that we have context on Moe and what he’s specifically struggling with, we can dig into coaching him through this particular staff situation he’s dealing with, and then end up with some higher-level takeaways that he can apply elsewhere.
So, now you have a decision to make. Right? The first is your expectation. You came in saying, “Maybe I’m not having the conversation right with him.” It sounds like you’re having the conversation. The behavior did change, right? There was some improvement. But now, the negative behavior is happening in other areas, and you’re getting some negative feedback on your direct report.
So, what that means is, it’s not completely solved. And if it’s not completely solved, what it’s going to require from you is having more feedback conversations. So, I think that there’s an expectation in your mind that because they are senior, they only need to hear it once or twice, or this shouldn’t even be happening. And when it is happening, you’re giving them the feedback once or twice, and then it should just resolve itself. But that’s not what’s happening in reality. They still have issues.
MOE: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, then the question becomes, how many issues does there need to be for you to make a decision on whether this is a performance management problem, or is it a skill that this person needs to learn that you’re going to coach them through?
MOE: From what I see, they have the capabilities, but they don’t have the passion. That’s my perception, and I trust my feelings at the end, because I’m dealing with them on daily basis. I know that if he just focusing, giving more time, focusing on the projects, he will be able to deliver, but it’s a matter of being, “I should be in a better place,” or something like that, which is, I cannot just give you what you are looking for without getting what I’m looking for, because… Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, it’s the motivation on their end, the commitment on their end.
MOE: Yeah. Yeah. I’m trying to motivate from my side. I’m trying to keep people motivated. I’m trying not to get them bored, because any job, at certain time, it’s becoming boring. You’re doing the same. So, you need to find something new. And that’s what I’m trying to do, but I have a limit. And the other person, they need to do some effort as well.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right. It’s a two-way street.
MOE: Exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right?
MOE: Exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: You can’t motivate someone who is not open to be motivated.
MOE: Exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: Now, I don’t know these folks that you’re talking to, so I can’t assess whether they are open to be motivated or not. But I am curious whether that is a conversation that you’ve had with them around their level of motivation and commitment and, as you put it, passion for being able to deliver on the competencies that they do have.
MOE: I tried to have this discussion when we were talking mainly about the conflicts that were coming with the internal team. That was my main focus at that time. But I wasn’t talking about motivation, because I wasn’t expecting, frankly speaking, at certain point that I’m going to get back to the same point where I’m getting a client asking to remove him from the project. I was trying to get him busy. People, when they are not busy, they lose motivation, and they spread negative vibes as well, which is something… I don’t want it to be contagious to the other motivated people within the team.
MURIEL WILKINS: Mm-hmm. Here’s the thing, right? There’s a saying around when you have a team, you have to make sure that… Imagine that your team is on a bus, and the bus is going to a certain destination, which is the goals that you’re trying to achieve. You’ve got to make sure that you have the right people on the bus, and then you have to make sure that they’re sitting in the right seats.
MOE: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so, when you look at your team members, to what extent do you feel like you have the right people on the bus when it comes to the senior-level team members? And if you have the right people on the bus, to what extent do you feel like they’re sitting in the right seats, meaning they should be in the senior seats?
MOE: I agree with you. Maybe, again, if we’re talking about the senior seat here, so it means that I need to give more responsibilities and delegate other authorities that I need to give. But how can I do with the current situation that I’m having now? I cannot move with such a decision. I’m not sure if this is… Maybe it’s a wrong perception that… For example, if I didn’t test him for being a line manager in reality, he has this experience. He’s saying that he has it, but I didn’t see it. So, shall I say, “Okay. Maybe he’s not doing the right thing on project management, but if I give him direct reports, he will be doing great job”?
MURIEL WILKINS: Well, I think it’s interesting, because you said, “I agree with you, Muriel.” I didn’t make the assessment.
MOE: Yeah. I know, but I mean, I agree about the-
MURIEL WILKINS: I asked the question.
MOE: I agree about the bus itself.
MURIEL WILKINS: The bus itself, but you automatically jumped to your answer, your response, which was, “Yes, I should be able to then delegate more to them and to give them more responsibility,” assumes that they are the right people on the bus.
MOE: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: And I don’t know one way or the other. When it becomes a performance issue, that’s when you start saying, “In order for you to be on this bus, you have to be able to perform at a certain level. And if you’re not performing at a certain level, you might not belong on this bus.” And so, I think you can’t automatically jump there. Right?
The first part is to lay out the expectations, and it sounds like what you’re saying is you’ve laid out the expectations in terms of skill and competency, and they have that, but they’re missing on the commitment and the motivation and the passion and what it is that they are bringing. So, at what point… And again, I don’t have any skin in the game. These are just questions to help you think through it. At what point are you making decisions around whether you have the right senior team or not? Do you feel like you have the right senior team?
MOE: No.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So, if you don’t feel like you have the right senior team, what options do you have in front of you?
MOE: They need to shape up. They need to show that they are seniors. I’m trying to work with them on that. But again, maybe the other point here, as we have been talking previously, you said that my expectation that if I’m saying or giving an advice for one or two times, that they should be changing.
So, maybe the question here, if they didn’t change, do I need to be just more aggressive in my feedback? Is this the solution, or getting to another way of giving feedback? Because maybe at certain point, I feel maybe I’m not delivering the message in the right way, because that’s why still they didn’t change this attitude, for example, let’s say. Is this because I need to be more aggressive? So, that’s the only way that they will be listening and considering to change?
MURIEL WILKINS: And what would that mean to be more aggressive? What would that look like?
MOE: Like putting someone on an action plan that, “I’m not going to be easy anymore,” let’s say. “Either I’m getting the results I’m looking for, or that’s it, the end of story.” I’m not that persistent, frankly speaking, and I don’t feel that this is the easiest way. It’s not sweet, but it’s the easiest way, to just, “Okay. I’m having the upper hand here. I will just put on action plan, and that’s it.”
So, maybe I didn’t have this kind of experience before, and that’s why I don’t want to step within this black hole that I don’t know how it would be, what is the consequence for such a decision to be taken. So, I’m trying to be patient. I’m trying to keep the open discussion. But at certain point, maybe I’m not being fair with the team and dealing with them equally.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. So, I understand. I understand. And there’s a couple of things here. Number one is, you said, “Should I take a more aggressive approach?” which is putting them on an action plan with very clear consequences, et cetera. I can’t tell you one way or the other, but that is an option. Right? That is an option for any manager, as is there’s an option of coaching them through it, which is what it seems like you have been doing. And so, I think your question is, Is it maybe because I’m not effective in the way that I’m coaching them, therefore that’s why they’re not changing? And then your other option is to just do nothing and keep things as is, which I know that’s not what you want to do.
MOE: No. Exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: None of these options are easy.
MOE: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: This is the challenge of being a manager. This is the part that’s not necessarily fun, because they all can be what can feel like difficult conversations. So, one is understanding what your options are, and then the other is, how do you know when you move from one option to another? And I think there’s a couple of things that you have to take into consideration. One is, “Well, if I keep things going at the way that they’re going, at what cost? And am I okay with that?” There’s a trade-off.
So, if what you’re saying is, “Look, I want to continue coaching them. I don’t want take the more aggressive approach of putting them on an action plan. I’m going to continue to work. I’m going to be patient with them. But in the meantime, I know the rest of the team is starting to feel very frustrated by this,” what you’re saying is, “It’s okay for the rest of the team to get frustrated, because it’s worth it for me to work with this person.”
And that’s fine as long as that’s the choice you’re making. But if you’re saying, “Hey, I can’t afford the rest of my team to lose motivation or to get frustrated or to get all these things, because they’re seeing somebody who’s not performing well continue to get rewarded. So, I’m going to now move to the next action with that individual for the sake of my team or for the sake of the results, or for the sake that I need a successor.”
So, Muriel can’t tell you what those different litmus tests are, but you have to sort of figure out, “At what point do I move to one of the other options?” Okay? That’s more something, as a manager, you need to come up with, and then you also have to look at your company. What’s the process? What’s the policy at your company? I’m sure there’s probably some type of HR policy of what warrants moving somebody to a performance improvement plan or an action plan, and every company is a little bit different in that.
MOE: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, this is definitely one area that I would say consult with whoever your HR person is to understand, does this even warrant moving to that? But what I do think is important is for you to recognize, because I feel like what you’re looking for is, “How do I make it a little less uncomfortable?” Right?
MOE: That’s true.
MURIEL WILKINS: And that maybe the discomfort is that you haven’t had this experience before. Yup. It could be that you’ve never had this experience before, and that’s what makes it uncomfortable. It could be that because you’re faced with people who are getting defensive, that’s what makes it uncomfortable. It could be that you prefer to coach people along and believe that people can actually change and improve, and you would rather do that than put them into an action plan. So, it goes against your beliefs, and that’s what makes it uncomfortable. There could be a number of reasons for what makes it uncomfortable. But the fact is, for you, the way you’re experiencing it is uncomfortable, and that’s okay.
MOE: Yeah. It means I’m comfortable that maybe this will push me to take an action, if I’m taking it from a positive way, that I need to find a solution to get comfortable, but I’m not happy being uncomfortable with the situation. Right?
MURIEL WILKINS: I don’t know if you’ll ever be fully comfortable with it, what you are doing. And earlier, you said, “Look, I trust my feelings around this.” You have to look at the facts, which it seems like you have evidence around where the performance is and what’s happening, and then there’s a certain aspect of, “Okay. What do I believe I need to do to move this forward?” And it can’t just be because you’re frustrated. That’s why I’m saying having some metrics. What does the person need to be able to do? What are the expectations regardless of who’s in that seat? What do they need to be able to do, and how do they need to lead as a senior person to be in that seat? And then you assess.
MOE: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: What I’m saying, Moe, is I think you have, but I’m going to ask again. Have you laid out what it means to be successful in these senior positions?
MOE: Yes. It’s about achieving the goals, and we do have clear achievements and KPIs that we need to achieve, with certain kind of quality that we need to be working, a specific process. So, it’s clear how to understand that you are achieving and you are doing a great job.
MURIEL WILKINS: And do they understand what the expectations are in terms of how they achieve those KPIs, meaning the behavioral expectations?
MOE: I’m assuming it’s yes. I know it shouldn’t be an assumption. But again, with the kind of discussion that we had, like the concerns that came related to communication with the situation happened with a client that is coming and saying, “I need to remove this person from the project,” they understand that they are not doing well.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And so, again, going back to your choices, one choice is to continue to kind of try to coach him through it. Right? The other choice is to kind of lay out an action plan with very clear goals or changes or progress that he has to demonstrate by a particular time. What would make you feel like you need to move from the coaching option to the action plan option? What would be the difference for you?
MOE: The difference would be the responsiveness to what we are discussing during the coaching. If I’m not getting the results from the coaching, so this means that I need to put an action plan. I’m escalating, I’m moving to the next step. That’s my understanding of moving to an action plan.
MURIEL WILKINS: So far in the conversation, Moe has taken responsibility and really questioned whether he could be doing a better job as a manager in motivating his team, especially with members that seem to be missing the mark, which is a great instinct to have, to ask, “What can I do better when it comes to team members that are not performing up to par, and when it comes to having tough conversations?”
But we reached a moment in this part of the conversation that I thought it was important to highlight that, at a certain point, you also have to look at the trade-offs, because difficult feedback conversations are uncomfortable. Suggesting someone might not be in the right role or that they lack passion for that role is uncomfortable. The hard part for any leader is to make a decision that is best for the team and the company. Otherwise, you’re essentially saying it’s more important to stay comfortable than it is to upset the balance in your organization.
So, while it’s always important to think first about what you can do better to improve a situation, it’s also good to remember the overall purpose you serve in your role, and whether the current team dynamics are letting you and your team fulfill that purpose. Let’s keep that in mind as I circle back with Moe now to talk about his definition of accountability.
And so, all these things are under the umbrella of driving accountability. As a manager of others, holding the team accountable is a big part of your responsibility. And so, what does that mean to you even, the term of holding others accountable? How do you define that for yourself?
MOE: Whatever is happening within my team, I’m responsible, and I want to make sure that we are having this mutual agreement about accountability and the level of understanding of responsibilities toward the project. That’s why when I was saying, “I’m assuming yes,” because when we’re talking about with the team and how they are doing the work, there are some baselines that we all understand, from responsibility, from accountability toward the projects, that this is not negotiable. It doesn’t need to be discussed.
So, when sometimes you’re discussing with a senior person, it’s a question mark, “Why we are discussing this point? You should know it. We shouldn’t come up to this discussion. I should be discussing something totally different. I should give you another responsibility.” That’s the kind of discussion, but not going back four or five steps then. We are starting to talk about basics, “Why you are not responding on time? Why you are not checking the document before you’re sending this?” And we find that it has a lot of mistakes, for example, or something like that.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And so, if the mistakes keep happening or if it sounds like you keep having the lower-level conversations or the conversations that you don’t expect of somebody more senior, and you’ve given them the feedback, that the conversations should be happening at a higher level with them, but we keep going back to these very baseline things, if that keeps happening over and over and over again, and you’ve given them the feedback in your coaching. So, these are two big… You’re telling me you have, right? So, I’m going to assume you have, and it sounds like you have from what you’ve shared. But again, I’m not in the room, but let’s assume.
If you’ve done the feedback and you’ve done the coaching, you’ve communicated to them where you expect them to perform, and yet they still keep performing at a different level that’s not aligned with the seat that they have on the bus, what are your choices at that point? You have three choices. Right? The choice is to keep them in the seat on the bus, and continue to coach them. The second choice is to move their seat on the bus, put them in a different seat that’s more aligned with how they’re performing. And the third choice is, they’re not on the bus.
MOE: Yeah. If you allow me, Muriel, just I want to go back one step, when we were talking about the feedback and when I was giving the example about the basics, just to clarify that this discussion still didn’t happen.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
MOE: The main focus, as I mentioned previously, maybe it was mainly about the communication and the conflict with the cross-functional department, and we were working on that. We saw some improvement. Now, with the new situation, with the new incident happened with this project, and a lot of investigation were going around, and then I figured out a lot of gaps, which, as I was just sharing here, that they are basics, that I wasn’t expecting to find such findings in this situation. So, that’s my point, actually.
And what I was planning that in this touch base, that I’m going to be discussing these new gaps that I found. I feel that he needs to understand that, “You need to change the way of managing the projects and dealing with people.” So, I need to take a decision. That’s what I’m feeling, that it might be even the good step for me if I’m talking here before going to an action plan, but I’m not sure if I should be discussing this during the touch base or shall I keep it for the end-of-the-year discussion only.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. You’re not going to like my answer, because I can’t tell you whether to communicate needs improvement now or at the end of the year, because that does become much more of a performance review question.
MOE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: It would be irresponsible of me to give you that type of guidance in our coaching irrespective of what the overall HR performance review process is for your particular company. Right?
MOE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, that is something that I definitely think you should discuss internally with whoever your HR people are. Okay? That said, I think your responsibility as a manager is to be clear about what the behavior is that you’re seeing, so what the feedback is, as concretely and specifically as possible. That’s number one. And number two, be very clear about what your expectations are.
And so, even if it’s not saying, “Oh, you’re going to get a needs improvement,” or it’s in the performance review language, to be able to say, “Part of what I’m seeing in terms of your work with XYZ is there’s a lack of responsiveness. You’re taking a week, two weeks falling behind in responding. My expectation is, over the next couple of months, that you improve your responsiveness and that you’re responding within X period of time.” So, that is about clearly stating expectations, which is your responsibility.
MOE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: And then the third piece is, how are you going to support him in being able to meet those expectations? And that’s where we get into, “Okay. I’m going to meet with him weekly. We’re going to go over what we discussed at this meeting, and I’m going to continue to give him feedback. I’m going to track the progress to see how things are going.”
MOE: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, how does that land with you in terms of the question that you had and then what my response is? How is it resonating with you?
MOE: Well, it’s giving me actually confidence more about the discussion, because I like the part that you mentioned talking about the actions and what are my expectation, and that, “I’m here to support you to meet these expectations,” because, as I was talking, again, with the personality of being a little bit defensive, I need to make sure that he understand that I’m not just point finger on him without supporting.
I need to ensure that whatever the message I’m delivering to him, that I’m able to evaluate it, and that we are having this agreement, mutual agreement, that we will be working on that together. It’s not that I’m just going to be the boss who is, “You just do it, and I will assess it.” We will work on that together, and let’s make the improvement. As I mentioned, maybe this is just giving me the confidence to go with this scenario, and I hope to get what I’m looking for.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. And Moe, you’ve mentioned a couple of times that what you want is for your direct report to understand what the expectations are, to understand what it is that you’re saying to him in terms of a feedback. What would you need to ensure for you that he does understand? How could you ensure that there is understanding?
MOE: At the end, he’s a smart guy. So, if I’m giving clear message, because here, what I’m talking about is facts, and coming with these facts and putting them on the table, saying, “So here, this is what happened with this situation, how it should be done to overcome such a situation.” So, if we open all these incidents and we had this kind of discussion, that should be setting the expectations for what should be going on for any other tasks.
It’s similarly the same way that he needs to… If we are coming to this discussion and agreeing on the preventative or the mitigation plan not to get such incidents happening again, so we are putting some expectations towards the attitude. But in general, it means that more oversight will be needed, and to have more effective time spent on the projects to cover these gaps that are coming.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. And so, what I would suggest is, in presenting the facts, there’s different levels of how another person can respond. Right? They can hear you, but because they hear you and they hear the facts and they see the facts, doesn’t necessarily mean that they are understanding the facts in the way that you would like them to understand it. Right? When we talk about understanding something, it is the interpretation of what you’re presenting.
MOE: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: And what you want to ensure, what I hear you saying you want to ensure is that he understands the situation in the way that you understand the situation so that then there is a mutual agreement or alignment that happens afterwards around how to move forward. So, yes, you can lay out the facts, but there are things that you can do to also ensure that he is understanding them in the way that you need him to understand it. He’s interpreting it in the way that you need it. And the reason why I’m bringing this up is because you said the person tends to get defensive. Right? So, defensiveness often gets in the way of understanding. It doesn’t necessarily get in the way of hearing.
MOE: No.
MURIEL WILKINS: It gets in the way of understanding. And so, one of the ways is you can check for understanding. After you’ve laid everything out and they’ve responded, say, “Okay. So, what are you taking away from this? How are you interpreting this? What do you think the next steps should be? What are you hearing in terms of what you need to do differently moving forward?” Check for understanding.
MOE: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: And if what you’re getting back is different than how you think it needs to be interpreted, then you can say, “Oh, I actually think we’re on different pages now.”
MOE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay? So, you want to check for understanding before you can then get to alignment. And mutual alignment is in how do you move forward, and that’s the, “How am I going to hold you accountable? What do we agree to or align on to move forward for the goal?” even though he may not agree. Right? What you really want is for him to understand and also be aligned.
MOE: Yup.
MURIEL WILKINS: Does that make sense?
MOE: Yeah. I agree. I’m trying to do my part, and I’m trying do my part to the maximum. It’s not just that I’m throwing issues on the table and saying, “See what you did?” That’s not my intention here. I’m really trying to help, because, again, I need my success story. And if I came up with this discussion with a positive output, it’s success for him that he’s going to be doing great, and it’s success for me because I was able to help him. That’s my scope as well. That’s what I’m looking for.
MURIEL WILKINS: What you’re doing is you’re planting all the seeds to increase the probability of that happening, of it being a success story. But obviously, there’s no guarantee that it’ll be a success story.
MOE: I will do my best.
MURIEL WILKINS: And that’s all you can do.
MOE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s all you can do. Okay. So, when you think about the questions that you had when you first came into the conversation and where you are now, what questions have been answered for you, and what do you think you’re going to do differently moving forward in dealing with these situations?
MOE: From the time that I got promoted to director, I was really trying to prove myself that I can take this position. As I mentioned, it was challenging times. So, I read a lot of articles, and I attended many podcasts. I felt that I was inhaling a lot of information, but I’m not able to exhale. I need to meditate and to just regulate my breathing. So, it’s not just I’m going to read. I need to take some out, but I want to make sure that I’m exhaling in the right way.
So, when I was coming here, I had a lot of thoughts about this situation. I was really frustrated. I’m not saying now that I’m relieved. Still, I’m feeling uncomfortable. I still am having my duties. And this kind of discussion that we are agreeing, it’s not going to be easy as we are having now, but at least I’m able to see a map and a plan that I can put the piece that I’m understanding the frustration that might come from the other side, and how I need to digest it and ensure that I’m giving the support.
It’s not that I’m attacking or I’m just finger-pointing. As I mentioned, this is a plan that we are mutually will be working on it. That’s what I need from you, and let me know what you need from my side to be able to get for what we are looking for. So, at the end, I’m giving the good intention. It’s his decision at this stage either to collaborate, or I wouldn’t say get out of the bus, but to sit inside in the right place within the bus at this stage. Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. Terrific. And yes, you can exhale now. Thank you, Moe.
MOE: Thank you.
MURIEL WILKINS: At this stage in his career, Moe has realized one of the hardest parts about managing, driving accountability on your team and making sure everyone on the team is performing at the level expected, motivating employees to stay engaged, having the tough conversations, and making the difficult decisions when needed.
Moe’s instinct to think about what he could do differently to manage the staff issues he’s facing is a good one. And a key takeaway here that every leader needs to pick up is knowing the difference between when an issue on your team calls for coaching versus when it calls for a performance management approach. Unless you know that you have different options at your disposal to manage how your team delivers, you’ll continue to feel stuck rather than move forward with a plan, as Moe is now able to do. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time…
NEXT EPISODE’S GUEST: I guess I feel quite certain in my mind that it’s time to make a change, and I think where I stall out a bit is, for so long, I’ve kind of gone to the right school and done the right prep, and then taken their next role and the next role and the next role. And most of my career has just positioned me for what I guess is objectively speaking kind of a traditionally big job, like a C-level executive at a public company type role. And now that I find myself kind of at the precipice of that next logical step, I feel pretty uncertain.
MURIEL WILKINS: I have a really important ask of you. If you love the coaching conversations on Coaching Real Leaders, it would mean the world to me if you could head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts and subscribe to the show. And while you’re there, leave a five-star review. And, of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes, please share it with them.
If you want more of Coaching Real Leaders, join me on coachingrealleaderscommunity.com, where I host exclusive live discussions to unpack every episode and answer your questions. You can also find me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins, and on Instagram, @coachmurielwilkins. If you are dealing with a leadership challenge, I’d love to hear from you and possibly have you on the show. Apply at coachingrealleaders.com.
Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crnko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my assistant, Emily Sopha; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners, who share in their journeys. From the HBR Podcast Network, I’m Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.
